Design and tech events need more diverse lineups. But getting on stage? That's a big hurdle. Women Talk Design CEO Danielle Barnes joins us to talk about how to get over it by giving yourself “a soft place to practice.”
Design and tech events need more diverse lineups. But getting on stage? That's a big hurdle. Women Talk Design CEO Danielle Barnes joins us to talk about how to get over it by giving yourself “a soft place to practice.”
Women Talk Design is on a mission to see a more diverse group of speakers onstage, and a more diverse group of leaders thriving in their workplaces. CEO Danielle Barnes shares her story of joining and building the organization from a speaker directory to a set of flagship programs and events designed to build a safe, welcoming community and elevate the voices of women and non-binary people.
One of the things that drives me to do this work is that I truly believe everyone should be able to see someone onstage—or leading a meeting, or in the books that they're reading—that looks like them, that has similar experiences to them, and think that that can be them as well.
—Danielle Barnes, CEO, Women Talk Design
We talk about:
Plus: in this week’s You’ve Got This, Sara offers tips for how to lower the stakes for yourself while practicing a new skill—whether speaking, listening, or anything else. Get more tools at https://www.activevoicehq.com/podcast.
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Danielle Barnes 0:00 I think some of the best talks that I've seen, and presentations that I've seen, are by folks that you maybe haven't seen from as often. The people who have some of the most compelling and interesting ideas are the people we don't hear from now. Those are whose voices I want to hear.
Sara Wachter-Boettcher 0:28 Hello, and welcome to Strong Feelings, the podcast all about the messy world of being a human at work. I'm your host, Sara Wachter-Boettcher, and today I'm talking with Danielle Barnes, the CEO of Women Talk Design. Some of you have probably heard of Women Talk Design from me because I do talk about them pretty regularly. They run these incredible programs for women and non-binary people who want to be heard at work, on stage, wherever. So that means today, we are going to talk about public speaking: why it's so scary, what you can do to make it less scary, and how it just might even change your life. And I will tell you, public speaking absolutely changed my life. I first dipped my toe into it in, I think, 2011—which means it’s been a full 10 years. And in those years, I've gotten to speak on a lot of different stages, and in a lot of different places, and it’s been really, really interesting.
1:16 Now, I don't think everybody has to do that. I don't think everybody needs to be sort of like an “onstage speaker.” But I do think that for me, it has been really important. It helped me learn new ways to communicate. It helped me get clearer about my beliefs and my ideas. It made me think a lot harder about why I do the things the way I do them or why I believe the things that I believe. It taught me ways to clarify and crystallize ideas and make them more accessible, more legible to other people. It helped me find new ways to feel confident, to learn to be a better storyteller, to get better with timing. It's helped me know how to manage fear and keep myself calm when I'm under pressure. Well, I’m still working on that one. But it has shaped me in some profound ways, and I also know it is not roses when you’re doing it.
2:01 So one of the worst things for me about public speaking, back when I first started out, would be going to an event and being the only woman in the lineup. Or, if it was a more design-focused, UX-focused event, maybe there would be a couple of women. There were often zero people of color anywhere. And I mean, that’s not even getting into all the other things I wasn’t seeing, like people of different abilities and disabilities, people with different cognitive styles, people from different backgrounds, people of different genders besides just “male” and “female”, etc., etc., etc. It was just very, very narrow. And sometimes I would also hear things like, "Oh, we really need to invite you because we need a woman.” Not the best way to give someone an invitation to an event. Like, they weren't saying because I was a great speaker or because I was speaking about something important. No, no, no, no, no: because of your gender. That can be pretty deflating. And so I know that we need to do way better when it comes to representation and inclusion at our events and on stages, and I think some of that is starting to change (too slowly, but it’s changing). And I think Women Talk Design has been a big part of that change in the design industry. They have done a ton of work to advocate for more diverse lineups, to connect organizers with speakers, and then to provide lots of, not just training, but encouragement, support, community for the next generation of speakers so that we can get so many more perspectives on stage in the future. So let's hear from Danielle about how they do it.
SWB 3:30 Danielle Barnes is the CEO of Women Talk Design, an organization on a mission to see a more diverse group of speakers onstage. She leads their flagship programs, curates a huge array of events, and connects event organizers with talented speakers who've been overlooked for way too long. Danielle, I always love our conversations, and I'm so excited to welcome you to Strong Feelings.
DB 3:52 Thank you for having me here. I do as well. I'm looking forward to talking with you.
SWB 3:55 Oh my gosh, yes. Okay, so we've talked a lot, but let's assume a lot of our listeners are pretty new to Women Talk Design. Can you start out by telling us just a little bit about what you do?
DB 4:05 Yeah, sure. So I would say our mission has actually expanded a bit beyond even the short description that you shared. What I say now is that we're really focused on elevating the voices of women and non-binary folks, because we want to make sure that they can share their ideas, and their stories, and their expertise, and be heard. That shows up in a couple of different ways: part of it is from our initial mission, we have a speaker directory of over 600 different speakers from around the world. And event organizers can go there and find someone to speak at their event. We also do a lot of events to both try to inspire folks to want to share their stories and to raise their hand to speak and then to give them the tools and practice to feel more confident doing so. Really what we're trying to do is connect a community of women and non-binary folks to be able to support one another, to offer feedback to one another, to share opportunities, and to celebrate wins.
SWB 4:59 So I know that the organization has grown a lot over the past few years and sort of like you just said, expanding the mission. When it started out, it was really about creating first that directory of speakers, right?
DB 5:09 Mmhm. Yeah.
SWB 5:10 How did you get from directory of speakers to running all of these programs?
DB 5:14 Yeah. So Women Talk Design was founded by Christina Wodtke, who I know that you know. She, back in 2013, was speaking at a lot of conferences and was often the only woman onstage and was like, pretty pissed off about it, frankly. And so that was why she made Women Talk Design. It was a result of her frustration to be able to say to event organizers, "Hey, you need other people besides just me and a bunch of white men on stage. Here's where you can find them and reach out."
5:43 A couple of years ago, she ended up hiring two design interns that were students that she was working with to dive into the problem a little bit further. So she had, you know, seen a problem, created the directory as a proposed solution, but you know, didn't necessarily know if that was the right way of approaching it or truly understanding the problem. So she hired Jennifer Kim and Melissa Kim. There was a lot of GoFundMe supporters that had helped make that happen, and what they were going to do is interview event organizers and interview speakers and figure out what the problem was, why they weren't specifically more women on stage speaking. And they found that oftentimes, it wasn't just that women weren't being asked to speak, that's definitely a problem. But also that they were saying no to speaking much more often. And that was because they might not have felt safe at the event. Or, maybe they were concerned about compensation and knowing that they would get paid less than men, or that they didn't quite feel like an expert and didn't know what they would share, or didn't feel like they'd reached that point in their career yet.
6:44 And so those research insights led them to redesign the website but also left us with a lot of really rich information and trying to understand this problem a bit more about who we hear from onstage and who was presented to us as being a leader within an industry. That's when I came on board; Christina and I have known each other for years, and she asked if I wanted to be able to take this information and try to make something of it and try to make a change with it. Over the years Woman Talk Design has continued to evolve really based on what we've heard and seen from the community. So based on conversations that we've had from women and non-binary folks who are attending our programs or events, and yeah, that's ultimately helped us shape it.
SWB 7:27 How did you go from, "Oh, yeah, sure, I'll look at some of this information you've learned and see what to make of it," to, "I am the CEO of Women Talk Design?"
DB 7:35 Yeah, so it took a little bit. I was always really excited that Christina was doing this. And it felt really important.
SWB 7:43 Yeah.
DB 7:43 And I'm a big fan of hers. We've known each other for many years. And so it started actually with some side conversations. She'd started a GoFundMe campaign to be able to help pay the student interns to work on this. She wasn't making any money on Women Talk Design, and I actually think that they might have needed to have some type of external funding for it to count as their internship credit, not just their teacher paying them.
SWB 8:05 Yeah.
DB 8:05 So she started this GoFundMe campaign, and during it, you know, I think she set out to raise a certain amount of money in X amount of months and raised that money within the first 24 hours and realized that people were really excited about helping figure this out, even if they didn't know what the solution was. And so we started talking initially, as folks reached out and said, "How can I help? Or what could you do with more money?" I started to kind of chat with her about that.
8:30 And at one point, actually, part of the GoFundMe campaign, when we were raising more money, was: "If we raise a certain amount of money, I'll hold a speaking workshop and help, you know, train a group of women to be more competent public speakers." And Christina and I know each other because we worked together at General Assembly, and I was the operations person behind a lot of the courses that she ran. And so she was like, "I need you to, at the very least, help me run this workshop. But there's more that you can do as well. And I think that if anyone can do it, you can. So if you can figure out a way to make this sustainable and impactful, then I would love for you to take it and run with it."
9:10 And I was pretty terrified. I had left my job at General Assembly; I was looking for other jobs and trying to figure out what was next. But I didn't necessarily want to start something. I didn't see myself as a CEO. I actually very much so love to build things from other people's visions. I was like, "I can help make your dreams come true, but I don't necessarily see myself as the visionary." So I was really hesitant about it at first and I talked to my partner about it. I talked to friends about it. And they all said the same thing. They're like, "Stop talking about this thing. Why not just try it? You can always walk away if it doesn't work out, but you know, you seem excited about it."
SWB 9:47 I love that idea that, "You can't stop talking about this. This is clearly something you want," and I can even see the big smile on your face as you talk about it now. Now that you've had a lot of time to evolve, and you've grown a lot in the role, what do you think about as sort of the flagship program for Women Talk Design?
DB 10:05 Yeah, we've been trying to figure out for a while: what is it that we do?
SWB 10:09 Yeah.
DB 10:10 I feel like we've done a lot of different events and programs. And we do both community programs and corporate training. Our corporate training and partnerships really help fund a lot of the work that we do at Woman Talk Design. But the program that I'm really excited about that I think really has the potential to have the most impact for the work that we're doing is this eight-week "Present Yourself" program that we created. And this is actually the very first workshop that, back in 2017, I worked with Christina and we have another instructor, Eleanor Mason Reinholdt, to put on a weekend workshop based on the GoFundMe campaign. We have continued to run that over the years and have evolved it based on participant feedback.
10:49 We moved it online during the pandemic, it was, first, two full days online, then it was four evenings online over four weeks. And a version of it now is a mix of both a asynchronous learning experience, so being able to read through and work through materials on your own time, which one of the things I really loved about this is we were able to invite different speakers to share their perspectives and their experience as part of this. And then there's also a live version, because what's so important with public speaking is not going at it alone. And one of the philosophies within Woman Talk Design is that we make each other stronger. And this is why community is so important to us. So that live component is when participants in the program can present to each other, and give each other feedback, and coach each other, and help them work through this journey. And it's a program that I'm really excited about.
SWB 11:42 I love it. So let's talk a little bit about public speaking.
DB 11:45 Yeah.
SWB 11:46 It is consistently on all of those lists of like, the top fears people have, right? Like, "People fear it more than death." I don't think that's actually true, but that's the kind of stuff people say about public speaking.
DB 11:56 Yeah, it's got a brand.
SWB 11:57 Yeah. And yet, like a lot of people, including myself are drawn to it. What have you found is powerful, and important, and maybe even necessary about public speaking?
DB 12:09 Yeah, you know, I think there are people, as you mentioned, that are drawn to it. And I think so many of us just have to do it. Like, there's a big portion of public speaking, that's not even something we want to do, but because we work in collaborative environments where you have to present your ideas and the office, public speaking shows up in our everyday lives. And then there's this extra layer of, "Well, maybe I'll share my ideas externally and with the world." And there are so many benefits to it.
12:37 One of the first things we have folks during the beginning of each of our programs is to identify their "why" and share why do you want to speak because that's something that will change over time, but will also, in that moment, help guide you to figure out, "Well, what do you want to speak about? Who do you want to speak to? And how will you actually start to make that come to life?" And I think that some of the benefits are everything from you're learning a new skill that you might have to apply at work, you're taking time to reflect and think about how you've grown, what you've learned, and even better yet, share those with other people. I think some of the best presentations and stories are things that you've learned the hard way that you don't want other people to have to do that as well. I've seen a lot of folks who want to start a conversation, so maybe they really care deeply about something, and they want more people to be talking about it, to be focusing on it.
SWB 13:25 Yeah.
DB 13:26 I think a lot of the really powerful talks are focused around that. I also think, and this is a really big part of our mission, is that people want to see more folks that look like them speaking and leading, and they can be that for someone else. I was talking to one of our workshop alumni this week, and she shared that her previous company she was working at, she works for an American company. She's originally from China. And in her old company, everyone didn't have an accent. And she just thought like someone like her maybe couldn't be a leader because she'd never seen someone leading or speaking at a company that had a strong accent like her, and it's something that made her really self-conscious. And at her most recent company, there is an Indian woman who's a leader and has a strong accent when she speaks English in the US and had said like, "Okay, I can see it now. And now it made me feel more comfortable raising my hand to speak in an all-hands." It's something so powerful. That is really one of the things that drives me to do this work is that I truly believe everyone should be able to see someone onstage—or leading a meeting, or in the books that they're reading—that looks like them, that has similar experiences to them, and think that that can be them as well.
SWB 14:36 I love that story so much. It sounds like the concept of community has been really valuable for Women Talk Design and helping to create a space where people feel like they can belong, and I'm wondering: what is that value of that community, in addition to getting feedback, which I know is part of it when you practice speaking, but what else does that community help people see?
DB 14:56 Yeah, well, even just following up to that story, when this alumna was sharing this, someone else who was in the room who had also taken the program with her, we were doing a kind of check-in post-program with folks who have taken the "Present Yourself" program. She had shared that she lives in Chile, and speaks Spanish as her first language, and oftentimes does have to speak English. And she said, you know, "You're not alone in that feeling. First and foremost, I want to tell you, you're not alone because I've also been so concerned about if I'm saying the right thing, or how I sound, or if people can take me seriously. So like, first and foremost, I want to tell you, you're not alone. And second of all, I want to tell you why I think it's important for us to speak and why this is really powerful."
15:38 And that's so much more meaningful than coming from me, right, to hear from someone who has had similar experiences than you. And what's so important about our community is that they can help uplift one another. And they can say, "You're not alone." They can help each other work through experiences. Our facilitators, and you know, even myself, I'm one person and I have one set of experiences, and I have my own identity, but it's not the same as everyone in our community's. And so that's where the community, I think, is so powerful and so important.
SWB 16:09 You know, we've touched on this a little bit already, but I'd love to go deeper on some of the challenges people hit up against when they think about speaking and some of those fears that they have, like, fear of not having the right accent. What are some of the most common ones that come up for people that have kind of like, kept them quiet in the past?
DB 16:28 Oh, yeah, I mean, I've heard a lot of, "I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing. So what if I say something, and it's not right, either because this isn't my native language, or it's not right because I just misspoke, or I tripped over my words? Or what if people think I'm stupid, or I don't know what I'm talking about?" So I think that's a fear, and some of that, too, comes from I've spoken with a lot of speakers who have spoken at conferences and have gotten some backlash and speech harassment based on what they've said. And so you're making yourself vulnerable by speaking and sharing your ideas and putting yourself out there.
17:03 I think that when it comes to speaking externally, there was, you know, a lot of concern around the kind of treatment and compensation around speakers, especially when it comes to thinking across gender and identity. Men are definitely paid more than women. White men are definitely paid a lot more than Black women, right? There's, like, countless stories of this, so that's definitely a concern. We did a workshop on meetings and helping folks be heard in meetings, and someone had shared, like, "I don't speak up in meetings because I did once. My boss afterwards told me like, 'This isn't your meeting to speak at.'" So I think it's also some, like, reinforcement of being shut down in trying to speak. So, both personal reasons, but also, like, societal reasons that have reinforced why, again, specifically women, or non-binary folks, or folks that are not in the majority, shouldn't be speaking.
SWB 17:57 Yeah, I'm wondering how do you help people kind of tease some of those things apart? What part of that fear is you getting in your own head? And what part of the fear is like, oh, no, that's a realistic fear based off of your actual experience in the world? And how do you figure that out and decide what risks are right for you? Since vulnerability—I mean, there's always a level of risk there. And that's where the really powerful stuff is.
DB 18:18 Yeah, I'll say, you know, Sara, you teach a program with us called "Take the Lead," and I think you do a really great job at this: talking about how we view leaders in a certain way. And it's not because of just our personal perspective, but it's because of society and the messages we've been told.
SWB 18:35 Yeah.
DB 18:35 And so that definitely comes up, I think, in several of the programs that we do is talking about, "You might be feeling this way, and you're not alone. And you're not alone because this is the way that our society has been set up and has told us these things." When talking about any of the issues of why you might not speak, whether it be more internal or external, knowing that you're not alone in that and in your head, I think, is really helpful. And then I think also pairing that with the “why it's important to speak” can then help folks say, "Okay, this is hard, and this is scary, and I'm not alone in feeling this way, but I think it's important to speak anyway. And I'm going to choose to speak because my 'why' is more powerful than my fear."
SWB 19:19 Yeah. When people get to that place where they have that powerful "why" that's driving them, and they're starting to, you know, formulate what they're gonna say, they're getting to that place, I'm wondering, how do you help them take, you know, a loose idea and push them a little bit to really own it. You know, not make it wishy-washy, not walk back from the thing they really think, like, how do you get them to really take it where it could go?
DB 19:45 The way that we teach developing your talk and developing your presentations is a really iterative process. So we use a design framework in order to apply that to public speaking, and part of that is a mix of reflecting and brainstorming, but also testing out things and getting feedback and trying it out. I think that part of really homing in on that "why" and finding a topic to go forward, one thing I think is really helpful is grounding it in story and reflecting on the personal experiences that you've had or that you've experienced that drive you to want to talk about this and having stories to help illustrate that. I think that makes a presentation more powerful. I think that's the starting place.
SWB 20:32 Let's talk about story a little bit, because, like you said, it makes it powerful. It's such a way to connect with an audience. But then of course, it's vulnerable, right? Like so much of this, what we're talking about, it's like, "Oh, I have to get vulnerable in order to do this thing."
DB 20:45 Yeah.
SWB 20:45 How do you help people figure out how vulnerable they can be and to get more comfortable with that vulnerability through the process of the training work you do?
DB 20:56 One of the things that we talk a lot about is that there's no one right way to do anything, and that we'll all have very different experiences in how we approach things, and what it takes for us to get comfortable doing things, how we'll put together a presentation, how we'll show up. And so, you know, one of the pieces that we encourage is that if you want to do something that feels more risky, what can you do to do it in a safe space first? "So I want to share this idea. I'm really nervous; I'm not sure how I'm going to be received." And so instead of going and applying to this big conference and giving that talk right away—which some people will do, some people, like, just love to throw themselves in the deep end—maybe you can, well first speak in this workshop of people who are supporting you and cheering you on.
21:42 We also do our lightning talks event, a community that we run, and folks can practice a five-minute version of a presentation. And the audience is really just there to cheer you on. They give you feedback also, but the goal is to practice in front of a supportive environment. And so I think that can be really helpful. You're still doing this risky, scary thing, but you're doing it in a safer environment and starting to gain the confidence from that to be able to then take the riskier step to speak in front of an audience that maybe isn't as receptive.
SWB 22:11 Gosh, that warms my heart a little bit because I was thinking about what might have been actually the first professional talk I gave at a conference; it was a lightning talk. And they stack-ranked the lightning speakers and told us.
DB 22:26 By what?
SWB 22:26 Well, after our presentation. I don't remember, like, what the categories were or whatever. But I think it was a single category of like, "How good was this talk?" kind of thing. But then they told us: "you were the like, third place out of five on the lightning speakers."
DB 22:39 Yikes. Why?
SWB 22:40 Yeah. Looking back at my brain is like, "What the hell were they doing?" At the time, I guess, I just assumed that that's what it was like: you put yourself out there, that's what you're gonna get, that you're gonna get judged. Because that’s not even critiqued, right? Like, that's just a judgement.
DB 22:59 Someone's opinion. Yeah.
SWB 23:00 There was no feedback to make that useful or anything, because it was like a lightweight thing for the audience. And I was like, what do I do with this?
DB 23:07 And then event organizers wonder why they don't have a more diverse group of speakers.
SWB 23:11 Right. Right. I mean, especially because even though, you know, lightning talk, I don't know if everybody here has given lightning talks, but they're often a five-minute talk. Some places, you know, play with the length. This was one that was doing an Ignite-style talk. That means the slides automatically rotate every 15 seconds, I believe?
DB 23:28 Stressful.
SWB 23:29 Something like that? And so your timing has to be perfect, and I will tell you, personally, I would rather put together a one-hour presentation right now and have to give it tonight than have to put together a talk like that to give tonight.
DB 23:41 Yeah, it's hard to be impactful in less time.
SWB 23:44 It's so hard. I don't think the organizer intended that to be such a stressful and kind of deflating experience, but it was, and that is not what I would wish for other people. And I hope the organizers are looking at that and going like "Oof, yeah, maybe we don't need to stack-rank people's performance as speakers." But I also think giving people kind of that soft landing sounds so powerful. It didn't even occur to me at the time that that was something that I could have, was like a soft place to practice.
DB 24:11 Yeah.
SWB 24:12 As you help people get more comfortable kind of taking up that space and owning their story more, what changes for them? Like, what does it open up for them in their lives?
DB 24:21 Oh man, I have seen some really powerful things coming from public speaking: everything from being able to hear that you had an impact on someone else. So you help teach someone something, or you help inspire someone that they could do this thing too, that can be really powerful. It's really impacted a lot of folks' careers, everything from "I have an additional revenue stream now because I'm a public speaker," or "I've evolved my career and what I'm doing." I know, some folks will, you know, start to speak about a topic that they really care about, and then they can start doing more work around it. It's, you know, turned into books for folks, new work opportunities. I know some speakers who have made really great friends from it. So it's a way to find your people, you attract people who are interested in some of the topics that you are and want to continue those conversations. I think, just really powerful things can come, and that's why I think it's so important and helpful to start with this "why" of what are some of the things that I want to come out of doing this? Because public speaking is hard, it's time consuming, it's vulnerable. But it also has such great benefit. And that's one of my hopes with Women Talk Design is that we can help support people through some of that messy middle as they're working through this to be able to see the benefits of it.
SWB 25:40 Yeah. When it comes to working through that messy middle, what do you find helps people kind of break through some of those fears, reservations, etc.?
DB 25:50 It sounds a little bit like a broken record, but I think the community helps a bit. So I think that not only just getting feedback on stuff when you're practicing, but seeing other people do it, too, you're working alongside other people who are working through their messy middle. You're feeling less alone in doing that. You're getting positive reinforcement. I talk about feedback a lot, but part of it is just support. It's saying that, "Yeah, you're doing this. And you're getting through this, and this is great."
SWB 26:15 Yeah.
DB 26:15 I mean, and sometimes too, it's just so helpful to say something out loud to someone else. So a lot of the times when we're working with folks that are working through their ideas, everything might be kind of jumbled in your head, and then you say it out loud, and it suddenly makes sense.
SWB 26:29 Yeah.
DB 26:29 Or you haven't fully made sense of it yet, but someone summarizes back to you what they heard, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, that's it." So I just think there's such power in not approaching public speaking alone. And I think that that's something we do a lot is we think, "I'm speaking individually. It's a solo thing. I don't want to share this with anyone else until I've figured this out, and I've perfected it." But it's really hard to get there alone.
SWB 26:53 Well, I think like so many things, when we get stuck in our own heads, too, it's like that's when all of those little inner critic voices get really loud. That's when the fear starts to really take hold. And something I've seen people do, and I'm curious your perspective about, is, I've seen people when they're stuck in their head, and they get scared, it's like they pull back from the parts of their idea that are actually the most interesting, like the parts that feel less safe or less expected. And they start kind of like shaving off the rough edges to make the idea feel safe and palatable and like, "Okay, got to make sure nobody could disagree with it." And once you're in a place where it's like your idea can't be disagreed with, it's kind of lost the power that it had. How do you help people, and how does the community (I'm guessing the community plays a role here), how does it help people kind of go for it and not put themselves back in a little box when they're trying to speak?
DB 27:41 Yeah, I think part of the process of going from "I want to speak" to "what am I going to speak about? What am I going to share?" is part of this digging-in process. Something that can get people stuck is saying, "Other people already talking about this," or, "There's other people who are more experienced than I am on this. And so I don't know what I would say." And it's that piece that you're talking about that may be more personal, may be more controversial, that's going to make your topic unique. It's the part that you really need to dive into. And so in the programs that we do and the way in which we encourage people to support one another is to dig into your perspectives and your experiences and start to share those in conversation with one another to get that feedback, and get that input, and get that positive support. Again, and doing that in this more supportive environment before you're just like posting, "Hey, here's my idea on Twitter," and then having it shot down, right? And then be like, well, maybe I shouldn't talk about this.
SWB 28:37 Oh my gosh, yeah.
DB 28:38 Being in a space where you know that other people are there to support you can help you dig into those ideas and reflect on your experience on your own.
SWB 28:46 Yeah. Gosh, I really appreciate that because I think it is easy to go through kind of like toggling between the extremes of like, "I will keep this all trapped in my head forever until it is perfect." And that'll never come. Or it's like, "Oh, I gotta go put this on the internet immediately to get "feedback," which can be really random and isn't always safe for people. I mean, for a lot of groups, right? Like, that's how harassment can happen. And saying like, "No, this is kind of like a curated group of people who are there for the same reasons, who share some values that have brought them to this space, and who have committed to the values of the organization," to make that a lot safer and lower the bar for people.
DB 29:23 And you know, sometimes we'll say, "Well, maybe start with the topic that feels less scary. Like, if public speaking itself is so scary, and there's all these different things, start with an easier topic just to get practice in doing it, and then you can challenge yourself in other ways by speaking to an audience that is outside of your comfort zone or starting to layer in things. Again, some people can jump in the deep end all at once. And sometimes it's better to take smaller steps.
SWB 29:49 What do you think the biggest misconception people have about public speaking is?
DB 29:53 I feel like there are several. One that came to mind is that there's one right way to do it. I love TED Talks. They're so good. I use a lot of them as examples, but I think that it has led a lot of people to think that a good public speaker looks like someone that you would see on the TED stage. And that can be really intimidating, especially if that's like, not what you look like or sound like.
SWB 30:16 Yeah.
DB 30:16 Some of the best public speakers I've seen have presented in so many different ways. They have been funny, they have been serious, they have been loud, they have been quiet, they have been a bit more academic, they have been super personal, like, I've just seen such a range of really powerful presentations. And so I think that's one of the misconceptions. You can continue to evolve and change and improve, and the first presentation you give is not necessarily going to be the one that everyone remembers. It can be nerve-wracking to get started, because you're like, "Well, if it's going to be a recorded talk, and that is going to be out there, and what if it's not ultimately like the thing I always want to speak about for the rest of my life? And like, what if it's not my brand?"
31:00 We do a speaker stories event where we interview different speakers about their experiences speaking, which is really great, because I think it highlights that there's many paths to public speaking, there's many ways to approach it. And one speaker that I'd reached out to has been speaking for years, talks at all different conferences and events, and I asked her about her first public speaking experience. And she said, "It was such a disaster. I thought I was giving a 60-minute talk. I was told the day before it was a 90-minute talk." Like, what talks are 90 minutes?
SWB 31:29 That is some talk.
DB 31:31 And she was like, "I totally bombed it." And I've been following her for a while and like, had never heard anything negative about her speaking, had only seen these, like, really great presentations that she's given. So that's something I like to remind people too is that, you know, you might have a presentation that doesn't go the way that you want, and it's not going to define you and your public speaking career.
SWB 31:52 Yeah, you know, it's interesting, I was just talking with a client today about some of these things. You know, they're about to give a talk they're really excited about, and you know, it's a paid talk for a company. Super hyped to give it. Feels like an important opportunity for them. And at the same time, they were like, "You know, this isn't the end-all-be-all." One of the things that they were doing was kind of raising that bar on themselves, like, "Well, if the company is paying me to give a talk, it has to be the most amazing talk in the world. Like it has to blow minds, it has changed the trajectory of the organization." No, no. It needs to be planned and put together, and like, what's the scope of work here? Like, what did you agree to do? It's like, oh, yeah, no, you're presenting for an hour at an event or at an internal session or whatever, it doesn't have to be more than that. And when you can do something amazing, that's great. And if it does shift people's thinking, that's wonderful. But like, sometimes a talk can just be a talk, and that's okay.
DB 32:50 And you're providing value in what you're doing. Because the people reached out to you to give it or say yes, when you proposed it, right? So they wanted to hear something from you, and that's why you're there. And I think reminding yourself of that can be helpful.
SWB 33:03 Yeah, that's enough. Sometimes that's enough. And I see so many people get stuck in these cycles of believing that they have to go so far above and beyond, and then that feels unattainable. So then it's like, "Let me just stop and not do anything at all, and then feel bad about it." And it's like, "Well, hold on. What if it's just enough to give it a shot, and see what happens?"
DB 33:24 I really love this idea of focusing on one thing at a time. So like, it's enough for me to just give this, or I was talking with some of our program alumni, and one of the things that came up is I watched a video recording myself. And I just noticed all of the things I wish I did differently. And we talked about choosing one of those things to work on for the next time. So rather than having to work on everything at once, what is one thing that you noticed that you could try? And I had shared with her, for me, I noticed when I watched myself speaking that I play with my hair a lot. If I'm nervous, I, like, fidget a lot. And so I started putting my hair up when I spoke. And that was one thing that I started doing; I didn't try to fix everything at once. And I constantly try to make these small changes. Focusing on one thing and not having to worry about everything at once, like, "I'm going to show up and present my material, or I'm going to work on this one specific thing," can be helpful.
SWB 34:16 I also think, you know, you're allowed to be human onstage.
DB 34:19 It's better when you are.
SWB 34:20 And I think for a lot of people that's hard. It's like, "Oh, but I said, 'um,'" or, "I misspoke there and then had to start over," or whatever. And it's like, "Yeah, because when people are listening to your ideas, and they're engaged in the conversation, and whatever, like, they're not paying attention to all of that," unless they're like the small percentage of society that is there to be a jerk, right? Like if they're looking for you to fail, they will find things to critique. Everybody else, they're just along for the ride, and they're not obsessing over what your voice sounds like. Sometimes it's hard to remember though.
DB 34:51 Totally, it can definitely be hard to remember. And I think it's really helpful if you can have either someone in the audience there that you know that can help cheer you on, or add in some opportunities that you can get some type of audience input so that you know, like, people are listening. It's helpful to have those reinforcements and reminders because we can get really in our own heads.
SWB 35:10 Yeah, absolutely. I love the idea of having a plant in the audience, so you can lock eyes with a person that you know is cheering for you.
DB 35:16 Yeah.
SWB 35:17 Well, so Danielle, I know that the next session of "Present Yourself" is coming up pretty soon. When does it start? And how can people sign up for it?
DB 35:23 It starts in January, it's an eight-week program, both asynchronous and with a live session each week, and enrollment is currently open. So if you head to https://womentalkdesign.com/presentyourself, you can learn more about the program, see all of our dates for 2022, and then enroll.
SWB 35:47 Okay, so Danielle, we've talked a lot about public speaking, and facing fears, and all of that. But I want to come back here for our second segment to talk about a little bit more of your personal experience. You mentioned at the beginning that you joined an organization that somebody else had created and have become the CEO of the organization. And as you've taken on that leadership and taken on, like, you talked about it before, that vision for the organization, how has that challenged you? And how have you stepped up to those challenges?
DB 36:15 It has challenged me in every way, and I'm continuing to step up to that. Yeah, it's a good question. It's a hard question. I think that part of what is at our core is community. And what I constantly have to ask myself and make decisions around is: who is part of that community? And who is driving that community? And this was really early on when I first joined Women Talk Design and was, you know, looking to learn from other organizations that were supporting women in design and pretty quickly realized, like, "Oh, hey, what about non-binary people?"
SWB 36:51 Yeah.
DB 36:51 Like, they also are facing some of these challenges. Why are we only women? Really, like, really our role was there's enough men on stage, but what about everyone else?
SWB 37:01 Yeah.
DB 37:01 So that was something pretty early on that we wanted to make sure that it was clear that we were supporting women and non-binary folks, but you know something we continue to know is an issue is our name is "Women Talk Design." And it's for several reasons. We're not just supporting women, we're also supporting non-binary folks. We also started supporting designers, but a lot of folks in our community now are not designers, don't identify as designers. And so that's kind of a constant struggle. And something that we know that we most likely want to change our name to be more supportive for our community. And that leads to just a bigger question of intersectionality in general.
SWB 37:40 Yeah.
DB 37:40 You know, we always knew from the beginning we didn't just want to be highlighting white, straight, middle-aged women in design, able-bodied. And, you know, I think in who we were inviting to be on the site would look to try to make sure we are highlighting a diverse group of people, but that isn't necessarily enough. I think that is something that's constantly on my mind and really important as we continue to evolve the conversation is, how are we not just supporting white women, but we're supporting Black and brown women, and disabled women, and LBGTQ women, and women that cross all of those identities, right? And part of that means that we have to have those community members involved, and we have to have them leading our programs, and we have to have them making decisions. Yeah, it's a big, big thing that is on my mind. Growing a small organization that has been mostly full-time run by me, a straight white American woman, for this now-global community, is something I think about a lot.
SWB 38:48 Yeah. Well, you said, you know, involving people from as many of these communities as possible and inviting them in to lead things, to run programs. How do you balance out setting the direction and vision for the organization as, like, the only full-time right, like, it is on you-
DB 39:05 Yeah.
SWB 39:05 -with wanting to really be inclusive of their voices and allow them to shape what Women Talk Design becomes?
DB 39:12 Yeah, I think that part of it is a lot of conversations. So, I spend a lot of my time talking to different members of our community. I think part of it is proactively seeking certain people out. I will say, when we have even people just adding themselves to the directory, the majority of people just adding themselves will be white women. And so that's something that, like, we proactively are going to be reaching out to and making sure that we're highlighting not just white women, and that comes also to who we're reaching out to, to invite to speak at our events, to ultimately, then, be able to, you know, lead workshops and programs for us. So I think that right now, it's just a proactive outreach, and then listening.
39:54 And I think there's still a lot of work and change that we need to do. And there's, you know, a lot of things that I know that I personally need to do better, that the organization needs to do better. And I think the biggest thing is being open to change. We were talking earlier about accents, and a woman who took our program mentioning that a lot of the examples we watch were people who she felt spoke perfect English. And so she said, you know, "These examples of talks, I don't see myself in them necessarily, because I have a really strong accent when I speak. And sometimes I don't say the words grammatically correct." And it made me even think like, "Okay, I've thought about before who we're featuring in our examples in terms of race and gender, and even internationality. But that's a piece that I haven't thought as much about."
SWB 40:40 Yeah, and I think that's huge because I think that that's so helpful to remember that you don't have to be a perfect anything to speak and to be an effective speaker and a compelling speaker. And that includes you don't have to be a perfect English speaker, or an English speaker who is accentless in whatever country you happen to be in in that moment. You know, it's funny, I gave a podcast interview recently in German. It's my second language. My German is good, but like it's not perfect.
DB 41:07 I didn't know you spoke German.
SWB 41:09 I do. And I had never done something like that before, and it was really difficult. And I'd always had, you know, some level of appreciation for how hard it would be to give a talk in a language that is not your first language. I will say, though, doing it in the moment, wow, it was hard. You don't have any of that back-and-forth that you have in a natural conversation where you can be like, "I'm trying to say this," and the person go, "Oh, you mean like this?" And then you know, there is none of that, right? You're just on display in all of your imperfection. And what I really took away from that was just how much bravery and courage it takes to not just speak up, but to also do it in a second language amongst people for whom you know, English is a first language. I think that that is so amazing.
DB 41:57 Yeah, I think some of the best talks that I've seen and presentations that I've seen are by folks that you maybe haven't seen from as often. The people who have some of the most compelling and interesting ideas are the people we don't hear from now.
SWB 42:10 Yeah, yeah.
DB 42:11 Those are whose voices I want to hear.
SWB 42:13 Absolutely, it has been a difficult couple of years, on a lot of levels. And I know that, you know, earlier in the pandemic, you had to shift all of the work that you were doing to an online format, you had done so much stuff in person before. As you've kind of, like, rolled with change and evolved and thought about inclusion differently, and you know, challenged yourself to be open to growing all of that, that's a lot. How do you keep yourself engaged and excited about this work?
DB 42:40 Definitely through having conversations with people in our community. And, you know, I mentioned that as something that I try to do often. But also like, on a day-to-day, there's a lot of times where I'm doing stuff behind the scenes. So creating a newsletter, or setting up the back end of an event, or, you know, doing things just on my computer in my house. And there's a couple of other part-time folks, that are part of Women Talk Design too, so collaborating with them is great. But it's the conversations that I get to have with folks who are taking our programs or who are in our community, and, you know, sharing the speaking opportunity they just got.
43:14 I had a really great conversation with someone the other day who read the recap of an event we did on getting paid to speak, and she asked to get paid for the first time and hearing about that experience, and the event organizer said, "Oh, I hadn't thought of that." And went back and found budget and paid her. And we talked about how that wasn't only going to make an impact on her but on the future people that this organizer reaches out to now that they have that expectation of "I should be paying people that I ask to moderate and speak." And those conversations just are what keep me going. Seeing women and non-binary folks in our community who take our programs, who engage starting to share their ideas, starting to ask for what they deserve, starting to support one another and helping lift each other up, it's just extremely powerful, and I think anytime that I get really weighed down or start to question what I'm personally doing with my life, those reminders keep me going and remind me how important the work is that Women Talk Design is doing.
SWB 44:20 Yeah. Okay, last question for you, then. What advice would you give to somebody who's in that little bit of a slump spot right now, who's kind of looking at maybe work that they were very passionate or excited about, and they've like, felt a little disconnected from it recently? What would you tell them to help them get out of that spot?
DB 44:37 That's gonna be something similar that I think I'd tell someone who's feeling stuck in public speaking, but it would be to go back to their "why," so like, why are they doing this in the first place, and see if they can find something that reminds them of their "why". So for me, it's, "I'm doing this because I truly believe that we need to hear women and non-binary folks share their voices and their stories." And so I'll look back at feedback surveys or go and, you know, see how one of our programs has been able to impact someone just through conversation. And that will help me keep going. So I think whatever that person is, they started doing something, there was a reason for them doing it. Can they point to or look back at something that reminds them of that "why"?
SWB 45:21 I love that: always go back to your "why." Danielle, thank you so much for being here today. Everybody, go check out https://womentalkdesign.com/. And I'm going to recommend sign up for the Women Talk Design newsletter because there's always lots of good stuff in there, including upcoming events, but also just sometimes tips, and advice, and useful things to help you feel more confident in whatever you're doing, Danielle, thank you again.
DB 45:43 Thanks so much, Sara. It's really an honor to be invited to your podcast.
SWB 45:50 So, something I can't stop thinking about from Danielle's interview is this concept of giving yourself a soft place to practice. Don't you love that: the idea of a soft place? Maybe it's just my end-of-the-year tiredness, but I think that that makes so much sense for public speaking. Who doesn't want a soft place? I also think it's something all of us could use pretty much all the time. We're often so hard on ourselves when we're practicing something new. We'll think that we have to master it right away, or that we have to be prepared to do it in front of the biggest audience or in the most high-stakes setting on day one. And so I love this idea of thinking about where would a soft place to practice help you right now? So that's our question of the day.
46:30 One place that comes up a lot with the people I work with is just speaking up in meetings. So not even giving, like, a talk, but sharing ideas, communicating a perspective, maybe offering an alternative solution. And I know that a lot of folks have this kind of inner monologue that's something like, "Oh, I have something to add here. Oof, but maybe it's not good enough yet. I need to really think it through. I've got to make sure I say it just right. Oh, wait, now the subject has changed. Well, I'll just wait for there to be a good time in the conversation. Oh, well, so-and-so just said something kind of similar. I guess it's too late now." And so there's a cycle where, you know, the stakes feel kind of high to speak up, and our perfectionism kicks in. And we start thinking that, "Oh, I have to have the perfect thing; I have to say the perfect thing here." And then when that happens, we end up putting off speaking up until we are “ready.” But "ready" is like some mythical goalpost way out in the distance, and it always seems to get further away. So that is a place where I think we could use a soft way to practice.
47:32 And then another one that I notice a lot is also with managers and leaders who need to learn to communicate with more compassion and to be supportive to their teams. I hear things a like, "Oh, I didn't expect so much of my time as a manager to be negotiating people's feelings," or, "Well, I got promoted because I was good at product design, but I don't really know how to handle these kinds of difficult or intimate conversations." And especially the last almost two years now, I keep hearing from managers that their one-on-ones feel like therapy sessions. And that's not the role of a manager; that's a lot for a manager to be responsible for. It is too heavy of a burden. But I think one of the challenges is that managers aren't used to operating in this space at all, so they're not really sure how much support they should give—what's appropriate, where are their limits, where are their boundaries—and they're uncomfortable. And the thing is, when we are uncomfortable, the other party can sense that. And if the other party happens to be someone on your team who's in distress, who's overwhelmed or burnt out, they're struggling and they're coming to you for support, that discomfort we feel can make them feel like they're doing something wrong by coming to us.
48:36 So my take is that all managers really need to get used to operating in this space of tuning into their team's feelings, listening deeply, acknowledging, validating others’ experiences. But like every skill, those things take practice. We're not going to be good at them from the jump, particularly if they're not something that we really learned much about or had to practice before we were managing. And we often don't give ourselves the soft spaces to practice; we expect to just jump in and figure it out like it's just natural when it's actually a really important learned skill. And at best, it's awkward when we do that. At worst, I think we can actually hurt our teams; we can hurt people that way. So whatever it is that you want to get better at, and those are just a couple of examples, I would really encourage you to ask yourself this question: what is a soft place for me to practice this skill? How can you lower the stakes for yourself while you get better at it?
49:29 And as Danielle said, this is where community really matters because a community that's working on the same things, they can be practicing with you. You can screw up together, you can give feedback to each other. So that could look like joining a program, right, like some kind of group program. It can also look like just setting up a peer network at work or creating a community of practice with some peers or friends outside of work. The key thing is, I really suggest looking for places where you feel safe enough to be vulnerable, where you can screw up, where you feel like it's okay to do new things, where it’s okay to be uncomfortable. Because that kind of soft place? That soft place is going to support you as you get better and stronger at all of these things. And I think we all deserve that right now.
50:15 That is it for this week's episode of Strong Feelings. I'm your host, Sara Wachter-Boettcher, and Strong Feelings is a production of Active Voice. Head to https://www.activevoicehq.com/ for all the info, and you can get every single past episode, show notes, and a full transcript at https://strongfeelings.co/. This episode was recorded in South Philadelphia and produced by Emily Duncan. Our theme music is "Deprogrammed" by Blowdryer. Check them out at https://blowdryer.bandcamp.com/. Huge thanks to Danielle Barnes for being our guest today, and thank you so much for listening. If you like our show, we would love to have you subscribe and give us a rating (five stars please) wherever you listen to podcasts. See you next time.